from otters_raft@lemmy.ca to selfhosted@lemmy.world on 17 Nov 00:00
https://lemmy.ca/post/55287100
Things continue to look bleak for the original robot vacuum maker. iRobot’s third-quarter results, released last week, show that revenue is down and “well below our internal expectations due to continuing market headwinds, ongoing production delays, and unforeseen shipping disruptions,” said Gary Cohen, iRobot CEO, in a press release.
This meant they had to spend more cash and are now down to under $25 million. “At this time, the Company has no sources upon which it can draw for additional capital,” said Cohen.
The Roomba manufacturer has been struggling for several years in the face of increased competition from Chinese manufacturers. A sale to Amazon in 2022 looked to be its lifeline; however, regulatory scrutiny scuppered the deal, and the company was left in further turmoil. It laid off over 30 percent of its staff, lost its founder and CEO, Colin Angle, and was left with substantial debt as a result of the fallout.
This year, iRobot launched an entirely new line of robot vacuums, ostensibly to better compete with companies like Roborock, Ecovacs, and Dreame, adding lidar navigation to its line for the first time (over VSLAM). The new models look significantly different from the original Roombas and more like their competitors. They also use a different app with fewer features, but added some new hardware features the previous models lacked, including spinning mop pads and a roller mop.
In a regulatory filing earlier this month, the company warned it may be forced to seek bankruptcy protection following the breakdown of advanced negotiations with a potential buyer, and if it couldn’t secure additional funding.
Roomba customers are understandably concerned about the impact these current financial troubles might have on their home cleaning robots.
Earlier this month, fellow American robot vacuum manufacturer Neato, which shut down in 2023, pulled the plug on its cloud services, leaving its robots unable to communicate with the Neato app. However, the vacuums can still be controlled manually.
Similarly, if iRobot goes out of business and its cloud shuts down, most Roombas should still continue to work in offline mode — pressing the physical button on the robot to start, stop, and dock it. However, they likely wouldn’t be controllable via the app for features like scheduling or specific room cleaning, or via voice commands. This potential dilemma just further highlights that cloud-connected devices should be enhanced by connectivity, not reliant on it.
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Time to DRM the trash out of them and spy on them, make money off subscriptions and selling the data to brokers who we trust to leak it to hackers again…
Didn’t they already try that? I figured that’s why Amazon wanted to buy them.
Oh look, another example of a product that worked fine without internet connectivity and was improved by adding extra bullshit you don’t actually need that then gets worse when those features can’t function properly because their server is offline.
We got a basic roomba 650 (the one that crashes into stuff and randomly cleans) like 10 years ago and it still works fine (well, as well as it ever worked which wasn’t great), you program the time and day of the week with physical buttons, and leave it alone.
Yeah. I've got an 870 that's still cleaning. It gets stuck under furniture and needs to be rescued at least once a week, and last week it lost its
assdustbin somehow mid clean, but it's still kicking.Lmao
If only there was such a thing like bluetooth to connect mobile apps to local devices
Mobile apps bit rot pretty quickly when they stop updating them. A web UI would be better. A server or internet connection is not needed, a web UI can be hosted directly on the device.
What does this even mean?
That means apps tend to stop working if the developers don’t keep updating them. Mobile operating systems much, much worse backwards compatibility than windows. If the device hosts its own website instead of using an app, it will most likely work fine decades from now without any updates.
Mobile apps that aren’t supported lose functionality quicker then webUI alternatives (since web standards stick around longer I’d guess)
it means android api changes, google play restrictions and removals
An accessible documented API would be better. A standardized one for all vacuums would be best.
If one came with Valetudo pre-installed (or installation was officially supported), I would be very interested.
For 99% of everything, if I don’t have 100% control over a physical thing in my possession, I refuse to buy it.
The exceptions are things like my phone because it’s a necessary device these days and there aren’t a lot of options for something not locked down to all hell. Though it looks like that could change eventually with a Linux phone.
Kitchen appliances, washing machines, cars, and beds do not need to be connected to the web. Hell even most of the smart features they claim require the network to function could be done without connectivity. Just program that shit into the god damn device instead of outsourcing the workload to an offsite server farm.
SailfishOS is mostly daily drivable, depends on which Android apps you need (there’s a compatibility layer to run Android apps on it), with bank apps it’s often a problem.
Banking apps are something that need to be working before most people will even be able to attempt to switch to a linux phone. If the options are call and be on hold for at least an hour when I probably am working got to a physical location also open only when I’m working or using a banking app that’s available 24/7 the last one is the only viable option for many people.
I can log on to my bank through a website
Well, that’s why you’ll have to try out. Or ask someone to at least try whether it opens, the apps mostly either fail on start because they require a Google certified Android, or they don’t fail at all.
Online banking can frequently be handled via the web site on mobile phones.
Graphene is good enough, IMO.
The real problem is that getting to 99% is damn near a full-time job and the capitalist cartel actively punishes it (by only offering owner control in ‘commercial-grade’ products at huge markup, or not manufacturing such things at all and forcing you to DIY).
It’s unreasonable to expect any but the most dedicated (read: stubborn) people like us to be able to handle it; the only viable solution for the masses is to wrestle back control of the government and end regulatory capture of the FTC etc.
Nope. There is firmware on cellular modems that is controlled by the chip vendor.
Carriers work with chip companies to make sure devices work on their network but they don’t even get the source, just early release blobs for the network engineers head of the device’s release.
This code is literally the most widely used closed source code. It is more locked down than the firmware on any other device you own. It often illegal to reverse engineer.
More reading
I’m sure one day there will be open source code for this but it’s going to come long after a Linux phone and until we can be anonymize with the tower, there is no privacy.
How did they squander being the name in autonomous vacuum devices…? It’s kinda baffling tbh.
Well, Chinese manufactures cloned the design and came in well under price, took the Chinese market, then improved the product and challenged iRobot globally.
Embrace, extend, extinguish.
I would not say they cloned the design. The first breakthrough for Roborock was the S5, which had LiDAR and a map. Both was not something iRobot had at the time. iRobot simply chose to not innovate in the areas people wanted first. People didn’t like the random cleaning that the roombas did for a long time compared to the structured of almost everybody else.
I used to work at iRobot. Chinese manufacturers cloned Roomba so well that parts from their robot like wheels assemblies could be dropped in and the Roomba would work.
The issue is that iRobot decided not to litigate patent infringement in China because it’s an uphill battle.
I agree that iRobot was very slow to innovate. They were on the brink of releasing a lawn mower robot but covid hit and the C suites made the decision to kill that product and fire that team to reduce risk…
I was working with the education division about a decade and a bit ago when they had an open source platform with sensors and motors. Then iRobot abruptly killed that division too, right as our project was getting going.
I haven’t felt good about that company since.
The saddest news is that they are down to like 4 mechanical engineers. There were at least 30 when I was working there.
I was told all the engineering actually gets done by the contractors in China. The engineers just send a wish list and the China team hacks it together.
iRobot not going to make it. 4 engineers can’t innovate just like that.
Letting a picture of a customer using the bathroom leak onto Facebook cannot have helped.
technologyreview.com/…/roomba-irobot-robot-vacuum…
Really? It’s not a mystery. China. For the past 5+ years they have had better and cheaper vacuums. Meanwhile innovation has been at a standstill with irobot for the past decade.
I don’t understand how these things took off in the first place. They seem about as helpful as a pet rocks. Well, less since the pet rock won’t spread your dog’s shit around the house.
It cleans for you when you’re not there. Not everyone has pets. (And not every pet shits in the house)
I have bought several in the last decade. I’m techy and disabled, and wanted to help out around the house. I have bought from multiple manufacturer but only purchase their top-tier offering, as I want to replace vacuuming, not just compliment it. We have pulled the manual vac out three times in 9 years.
The cheaper ones are meh, but the expensive ones can truly replace vacuuming and mopping. My issue is that, across… 5 brands, none of them have lasted longer than 2 years, often much shorter lifespans. I recently bought a Roborock with an extended warranty from RR themselves, something none of the others offer, so I’m hoping to be using it for several years to come.
I mean I’ve had to replace a battery every 2 years otherwise this data point has kept working.
How is the dog shitting in the house the Roomba’s fault?
If only they had a camera and Ai vision to avoid dog shit
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/25150d9f-4812-4fd4-a668-640d10d9e6fd.webp">
I hate them. They’re loud and annoying and get stuck on things. I can vacuum my house a lot faster.
If it doesn’t work when the cloud is down, it’s not your thing. Don’t buy it. 8sleep is only the most recent example.
Not to support this cloud-only system, but I used to own an iR (several, actually) and they can clean the entire space, pause, and cancel/dock with physical buttons.
Though it loses a large chunk of its smarts without a connection. No floor plan retention, no room selection, no 1 pass/2 pass, no knowledge about no-go lines and zones, no adjustable suction based on room…
But there’s no real reason for that. Losing the smarts. It’s just artificial to achieve lower bom.
Really? It can’t do no-go zones and lines without the cloud? Even the „Chinese competition“ can do that without internet.
Afaik there is extremely limited storage on these bots, so the floor plan is stored server-side. No cloud, no server, no no-go capabilities.
If only we had things like 1tb storage in a tiny chip
I hope one day we could develop something like this
Line no go up if consumer has autonomy and awareness. Quick, marketing drones, put up more information about our amazing and very complex and totally unique super mega ultra cloud!
✨ profits ✨
The rommbas? Maybe. The other ones? They have plenty storage.
Given how cheap flash storage has been for years, this is an intentional design choice. They wanted it to be server side only, likely for data collection purposes.
For anyone interested in owning their vacuum robot check out Valetudo
Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear to support anything from iRobot. I’m hoping that there will be a jailbreak made available before they go bankrupt, but I doubt it.
Not supporting iRobot vacuums isn’t necessarily a bad thing, considering that at the price iRobot is asking for their vacuums, a lot of the other companies in the space offer much nicer models with more features.
Except, you know, for everyone that has an iRobot device that is going to lose connectivity soon.
Absolutely love Valetudo!
Idk, the dev seems… hostile. And prevents the project from becoming a community effort. Also:
I mean, I do wonder if I will lose features, therefore I guess I should look elsewhere.
It’s all explained here: valetudo.cloud/pages/…/why-not-valetudo.html
The dev has a specific vision and that’s it. If you don’t like it you can use something else.
Just like the dev of Calibre/Kitty. He does things a certain way because that’s the way he likes it. It’s a stupid and shit way, but Calibre has no real competition so I use it 🙂
Yes, that’s what I wrote as well.
No, I am not doing that, because I cannot do that. That is the whole thing with FOSS code.
If there was a community of builders picking it up and doing something community-driven, I could not do anything about it, nor would I want to.
They would be required to not call it Valetudo + not use the logo, so that they cannot coast off the brand and reputation of course - and that I would absolutely expect from anyone -, but other than that anyone can do whatever.
Why this hasn’t happened yet, I cannot say for certain, but my hypothesis is that no one actually wants to put in the work. Likely both because work is work and work is annoying, but also because what exists now just works so what would you even do other than slap another name on it and feel good about yourself.
But putting that aside, I’d like to ask a different question: Why wouldn’t I want that?
If community is nice, friendly, warm and full of heart, why would I oppose that? I am, after all, just like you. A human that would like to have fun, pleasant and nice interactions with other like-minded humans. I, like everyone else, am a social creature that enjoys being seen as a fellow human and member of a group.
So why would I oppose that?
The answer to that might be, that the mental model of “community project” does not actually in reality and execution fit any of what I described right now.
Of course, I cannot and will not rule out that it is just me and that I am the problem, but even if that is the case, then I still need to exist and need space to exist. “Just be normal” just means “stop being you”
It would be quite weird to not allow me to exist within the space I created from nothing from the ground up, wouldn’t it? If even that isn’t a place I would be allowed to be in, then where is?
Valetudo is not a community is on the website.
If your answer to my comment is: “well, you can create your own community, with blackjack and hookers!”, well… There’d be so much to discuss that I don’t think it’s worth it.
And as for the second paragraph, communities aren’t “nice”. They’re communities, made of people, who are all flawed, just like everyone is, in different ways, but manage to make the puzzle of human interaction fit. If all you want is people communicating and behaving in a specific way that you approve of, that’s not a community.
Nobody’s forcing you out of your space and I’ve never proposed it, I just said that I won’t be using your software, we’re both making our choices, hopefully in respect of each other.
Holy crap, didn’t expect the creator of Valetudo to be here. Love your style, keep it up
🫡
First off, thank you for all your work.
You set the bar pretty high for improvement.
The vacuums are expensive. The work requires multiple top-tier skill sets, and the people with those skill sets don’t generally have enough time to contribute to something this heavy
Somebody could just fork you and clone everything you’re doing, but it’s not like any users would chase someone else versus you when you’re the only one getting actual work done.
It’s also kind of poking the bear for these vacuum companies skirting along by selling user data.
Thank you very much for your hard work. I would never have gotten a robot vacuum if Valetudo did not exist.
I’ve only ever seen a dev become “hostile” when people simply don’t read the documentation and ask the same questions over and over and over again.
I’ve been eyeballing this, doesn’t seem too difficult for most compatible models either. Might be a little after Christmas project
Just buy a normal vacuum since those can still be used without web connectivity. Avoid anything made by TTI if you want your shit to last though. Also, avoid Kirby and Rainbow due to their scammy business model and extortionate pricing (seriously, quad figures for a vacuum is ridiculous even without the scammy business model).
Unless you’re buyin’ used. Kirbies are still built like tanks.
Sebo stuff is also built really well too, or it better be given it’s commonly abused in commercial settings; think hotels and schools and the like, plus bypass designs like what Sebo typically uses mean sucking things up like coins won’t break your machine, vs. direct-air designs like what Kirby uses in which sucking up hard objects will break your machine.
I’m somewhat interested in what’s coming up from Kärcher. Being a company based in Germany, EU, I’m stupidly hoping that EU data protection laws prevent them from doing the shittiest things.
kaercher.com/…/3690-fully-autonomous-robot-vacuum…
Being old company from Germany, EU shouldn’t put you at ease.
csoonline.com/…/volkswagen-massive-data-leak-caus…
I have a Roborock that supposedly has Matter support (over WiFi not Thread, but still) and integrates into my Home assistant fairly well.
I wonder if it would break without Internet.
You can find out - set up a local DNS (pihole, blocky et. al.) and check which domains the vacuum connects to.
Then block those and see what happens! Interesting experiment for a weekend.
Unplugging the internet is also an option…
Depends how often it phones home?
Some devices are just dandy to only phone home once per day/week/month. Fully completely capable of operating independently except for MBA concerns.
My daughter’s toy was like this. The company went bankrupt. Servers went down. The device worked for 30 days then it never worked again.
I doubt you’d want to turn off the Internet for 30 days…
Connect it to a spare access point, create a custom filtering rule on the router…
If it’s a CRL-200S based robot, the manufacturer will straight up brick it within a few days.
Bro, I just bought a Roborock a few weeks ago and I love it. I was panic reading these comments until I saw yours and realized it’s a Roborock, not iRobot. Hope our housebots don’t meet the same fate.
It would be easy enough to force vendors to make the URL the device connects to, configurable and to publish the API the device is using. Two minuscule changes that can prolong the life of devices by decades.
To be fair, many roombas have a mini DIN connector somewhere, which opens up the possibility for external control - what I plan to do when mine stops working due to server shutdown. However, getting replacement parts will get more and more tricky as time goes by.
I just had to through out a mostly functional airfryer because the drawer rail disintegrated and the replacement part is no longer manufactured. The oldest one I could get was a “new” version with more plastic and a slightly bigger size, so it didn’t fit by about 5%.
It really should be illegal, there is no logical reason for 500 slightly different models and inoperability of basic functions (drawers, APIs, …) aside from malignant greed and planet destruction.
Gods, I fucking hate this so much. I’ve got a ninja blender that the lid seal is broken, and the lid alone is like 50-70% of the cost of a whole new unit. It’s ridiculous how impossible it is to find replacement parts for simple things anymore.
This is why I have a 3D printer. I make all kinds of seals, gaskets, o-rings, usually better than original.
How do you 3d print a rubber gasket/seal?
TPU works fairly well depending on the application.
I wouldn’t rely on it for high temperature (above 150C) or high pressure/vacuum applications, but for most household applications it’ll hold up fine.
Do you use a special filament for that?
That would make the husk of the company truly worthless, and I’m not sure private equity will allow that.
Yeah, the one cloud-connected device I had in my house, my Neato D7 Botvac, was lobotomized just last week when Vorwerk switched off its servers. I’m quite pissed off. It still works if I press the button and let it roam, but I lost scheduling, cleaning maps, no-go zones… I’m MORE than quite pissed off.
I have two D5 and the app and cloud connection is working just fine!?
Can you open the website? I can’t:
<img alt="" src="https://feddit.it/pictrs/image/74c1e01d-e565-4e34-9f5c-3aeeeb698606.png">
I didn’t know there’s a website to login to. Always ever used the app. But yes, I can open it:
<img alt="" src="https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/8d7b9927-e70c-447f-b4bd-ec05297c8e01.png">
Weird, must be regional
Your floor -your floor is now clean
Reminiscent of all the other failed tech companies that refused to implement better/newer tech.
I wouldn’t get one without lidar.
Lidar is fucking awesome. My vacuum will damn near chase me out of wherever it’s cleaning 😂
Buy a broom ya lazy bums
This vacuuming is brought you by Squarespace…
You can’t set a timer on the thing without internet access?!?
You can’t do shit on those roombas without a connection to the manufacturers servers.
On and off is the most you can do.
In order to make them work again once the servers are down, you need to spoof the dns to a local server that you then need to reverse engineer from the api.
If you are lucky the thing has home assistant integration because some awesome people already did exactly that or the manufacturer was kind enough to give access to the bot api
Wow, what a piece of shit. Dumb engineers.
No fucking way this was decided by an engineer instead of a manager
Dumb shit like this is never the engineer’s idea.
I can guarantee you it wasn’t the engineers that wanted it this way
Not a single one of the robot vacuums that I’ve bought in the last 2 years seem to be able to function without internet access.
It’s asinine.
Also they break down so freaking fast. It’s not even funny. Even worse when the part that’s broken is non-replaceable and it’s like a $3 part.
Truly the Kodak of this generation
Kodak said “we don’t believe digital photography will take over” and iRobot is like “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas”
They fucked up by making their robots last seemingly forever, due to the fact they spy on you and get stuck every 15 mins so you never want to turn them on.
The entire problem is that automobiles have become an accepted housing option, and Roombas don’t operate well in a vehicular environment, thus drastically cutting into their sale.
Maybe we can come up with a decentralized serverless way to control all these vacuums while stealing people’s data for charity?
Hey roomba! I want a second mortgage!
Hey roomba! My bank account is huge I wish a credit card company would just call me!
This should be everyone’s takeaway.
The problem isn’t the company possibly going out of business, its the loss of online service nerfing the device that is the real issue.
We could have consumer protection laws that mandate when a service that a consumer product relies on is no longer being served by the company, they must release the source code as FOSS for the community to carry it on if they so chose. This could apply to video game servers as well as robot vacuums.
Glad we have dumb “roomba” that has just one physical sensor when he bumps into something and infra for detecting docking station and for remote control. It does the job and that’s the main thing. Over the years only had to replace the battery.
That’s what my wife calls me. JFC America, burn a calorie.
I go ride my bike instead of vacuuming
yeah I usually go work out while it’s running lol, or do some yardwork or something
Calories are expensive, and I’m not made of money.
Customers shouldn’t need to be concerned because the company going down should not brick your PHYSICAL PRODUCTS
And yet, here we are
But, clearly, a Google Home or Amazon Alexa needs cloud connectivity to function. And short of Stop Killing Games regulations forcing companies to release software to keep purchases functional after server shutdowns, there’s going to be no alternative when they shut down the servers.
But where do we draw the line?
A smart fridge should obviously keep working without cloud connectivity, since cloud features aren’t relevant to its core functionality.
A
spywarehouse-scanning vacuum robot, on the other hand, that stores video of your entire house on web servers “to map your home” may not have the processing power to model the home based on itssurveillancevideo recordings. So, is it reasonable, then, that these break when servers go offline?Without any regulations, the answer is just “consumers can go fuck themselves”, which clearly isn’t a good answer.
He said Home Assistant not Google home.
You mean the person who posted 3 hours after me?
I’ve got one, and it works well enough when offline.
If not, I could set up Home Assistant and self-host it.
It’s a shame, as Mozilla gave iRobot one of the better privacy ratings. That’s the only reason I allowed it in my house to begin with.
Pressing a physical button to stop it. So you gotta chase your roomba down before it eats your chinchilla. Sounds fun.
I bought a robot vacuum, rooted it, and installed Valetudo (Wyze WVCR200S w/motherboard from a Viomi V6 - same robot).
I don’t have to worry about this shit anymore. The vacuum still does the vacuum thing whether or not it’s connected to the internet.
Is this a COA for irobot Roombas?
How difficult was this to do?
I had to replace the motherboard with one from a different variant (same robot) that could be rooted. Outside of that - super easy.
They should have diversified into ass wiping robots when they had the chance.
All the robots became self aware and reformatted themselves
Do people genuinely rely on these or are they really just a novelty?
My Roborock is genuinely an important cleaning tool for keeping my messy house with three kids clean.
Same, I have a Roborock and it cleans my house 3 times a week, mops and vacuums. I still need to vaccums in corners and narrow spots occasionally but the bot does 95% of the work for me
If the apartment/house layout is good for the roomba, it is a great tool. It doesn’t replace vacuuming and floor washing, but it does reduce the dirtness on the floor.
It makes my life easier for sure. I just start it when I head outside for work, errands, etc, and it’s done by the time I get back home.
Don’t have a roomba (shark owner) and me and my two other vacuum cleaners depend on my robot vacuum to help pickup both my godwn retriever and corgi hair on a daily basis.
rely? no
find it a useful assist? yes
the Roomba can:
get under couches that my other vacuums cannot
deal with 90% of the average mess (dog hair and miscellaneous crumbs) without my input
pick up the little bits that you can never manage to sweep into a dust pan
do this within about 10-20% of the time it would take me to do it myself
things it cannot do:
vacuum carpets
get into corners
deal with large messes
typically, I will sweep crumbs and crap out of corners into the middle of a room. I do this all the way around this level of the house in under two minutes, which includes picking up the large clumps of fluffy dog hair that have accumulated along the walls and tossing them in the garbage and putting the broom back. I can then run the Roomba, and the only thing left to do after is brush/vacuum the carpets & rugs well.
I also like the mopbot thingy because that definitely takes less time than doing it myself
This is why IoT isn’t sustainable. If you don’t have total control you’re fucked.
I have a roomba, it is called “me with a vacuum”