from JeanValjean@piefed.social to selfhosted@lemmy.world on 21 Aug 16:33
https://piefed.social/post/1171839
New server has been acquired. Debian 13 has been installed.
GS308EP switches have been acquired and installed.
Now, I’m working to migrate to the new machine. 3 1/2 years ago when I started futzing with Docker, I sorta followed guides and guessed, abused it trying to make it do things it wasn’t designed for, and flipped switches I likely shouldn’t have flipped, so the set up is more than a little shabby.
As a result, I’ll likely end more redeploying than migrating the containers.
So rather than go forward with Docker blindly, I want to reassess whether I shouldn’t look into Proxmox, LXC, or Podman instead of Docker, or maybe something else entirely?
Work is just about done dumping ESX for Nutanix, but both of those seem overkill for my needs.
Of course the forums for any of the solutions make their own out to be the best thing since sliced bread and the others useless, so I’m hoping to get a more nuanced answer here.
threaded - newest
I use proxmox has the base OS to deploy different virtual machines/LXCs depending on what I need. I have a dedicated docker lxc among those. Say what you will about docker, and man do people have opinions, but proxmox is probably the best way to run a multi lxc/VM setup. Highly recommend regardless of what else you do.
I am using proxmox to host my docker machine as well. I’m also using it to host a W11 machine for just-in-casies. Third machine so far is a VM for testing.
@Vendetta9076 @JeanValjean I happened to be searching on running docker inside lxc today. There were quite a few suggestions on configs to make them not go kurplunk. I think i might follow them..
I used proxmox helper scripts for portainer lxc and would get my host system kernel panicked from backing up the lxc that had a NFS share mounted with fstab. Solved it with moving to komodo lxc and setting the NFS share being mounted directly to the container with Docker Compose.if you decide portainer you can set that up with stacks feature. Hope that helps.
Only pain will you find down that path. I did that for years, but it’s a pain. You have to disable so many security features, and I found it to be incredibly brittle. I found myself fearing all proxmox upgrades because each time it would break the lxcs. I wish you luck
It’s not worth the headache IMO. Just run a docker VM and use lxc for the one-off systems that you want to experiment with.
I have a “production” docker VM and a “sandbox” docker VM and prod only ever runs compose files that I’ve vetted in sandbox. Super stable, basically bulletproof, and still has the flexibility to experiment and break stuff without affecting my core services.
I have a dedicated LXC container called docker where I install all my docker images.
Same here and it’s worked well. I migrated my arr stack from another machine where it was in docker and just couldn’t see a reason to spend a bunch of time rebuilding it with LXCs.
Maybe you could try nixos?
Especially without any additional context or knowledge about their background, directed at someone clearly only starting out, this is incredibly bad advice.
Edit: typos (italic), sorry that was probably hard to read.
Oh I didnt see the downvotes😅
Hm, to explain my reasoning:
I saw them talking about stuff that seemed complex to me and seem to have some experience with servers (already had a server), so I’d say they know way more about me and I’m going to set up a nixos server in like a month (been using them on my laptop for ~9months, but not in any fancy way). If I can, they I guess they probably can too.
I thought about throwing an idea to consider. I’m too in the process of learning so I cant give a good plan yet:/
I see that in the end they ask for a nuanced answer, rip, I failed to do that
Hahaha. I see you’re being down arrowed a bit… But I was thinking the same thing.
Reason I was thinking nixos was because op was talking about " flipping switches" they couldn’t flip back. Nixos has that sorted out.
Plus… It sounds like op isn’t afraid of trying new and possibly difficult things on a new server they’ve acquired
The truth is that proxmox is likely the best option here. But nixos could be a fun ( type2 fun) challenge if they’re into that kind of thing
If you’ve got Debian already installed, I cannot resist advocating for Incus (stable branch from Zabbly repo with web ui https://blog.simos.info/how-to-install-and-setup-the-incus-web-ui/) in lieu of proxmox. Does the same thing but you don’t have to rip out the kernel Debian uses.
With Debian 13 you have access to podman quadlets, use that for any non-vm needs. The ease of docker compose files easily removes reason for programs in LXC containers, and podman removes reason for docker in an LXC. LXC is left only for programs that aren’t containerized. VMs for security DMZ. Podman for bulk of stuff you want.
Good luck!
I was in a similar spot not too long ago, setting up a firewall and general network box. I was going to go with Proxmox but a fellow Lemmy guy strongly advocated for Incus on top of vanilla Debian. I was intrigued and ended up going for it. Learned a lot about networking with systemd (bridging, IP assignment and so on) for things I could have gotten for free in Proxmox (literally a few clicks), and had to fight Incus to work with a FreeBSD VM for Opnsense, but I love the setup now. Pure debian with a few Incus VMs and Docker inside of those as needed. So clean!
Came in here to mention Incus if no one had.
I love it. I have three “home production” servers running Proxmox, but mostly because Proxmox is one of very few LTS/comercially-supported ways to run Linux in a supported way with root (and everything else on ZFS). And while its web UI is still a bit clunky in places, it comes in handy some times.
However, Incus automation is just… superior.
incus launch --vm images:debian/13 foo, wait a few seconds thenincus exec foo – bashand I’m root on a console of a ready-to-go Debian VM. Without–vm, it’s a lightweight LXC container. And Ansible supports running commands throughincus exec, so you can provision stuff WITHOUT BOTHERING TO SET UP ANYTHING.AND, it works remotely without fuss, so I can set up an Incus remote on a beefy server and spawn VMs nearly transparently. +
incus file pull|pushto transfer files.I’m kinda pondering scripting removal of the Proxmox bits from a Proxmox install, so that I just keep their ZFS support and run Incus on top.
Hmm, I setup a Proxmox machine a while back because, well, all the cool kids seemed to do it - and plenty of “support” on youtube
I found Incus and it just seemed better, but it was harder to find info on (back then) and seemed a little unready
Now, I regret not sticking with my gut instinct as I’ve got to basically rip out Proxmox to get Incus in, which means all my VMs are prisoners (and us: 1 VM is Home Assistant!)
So, do you know if it’s possible to migrate my VMs across to Incus, or is it literally wipe drive, start again?
(Obviously the data in each VM can be backed up & restored into new VMs)
I haven’t tested this, but I would expect there to be ways to do it, esp for VMs if they are not LXC containers.
(I try to automate provisioning as much as possible, so I don’t do this kind of stuff often.)
The Incus forum is not huge, but it’s friendly, and the authors are quite active.
I’m looking at Opnsense on an Incus VM soon, what was your fight there? Good to know what I’ll hit ;)
Agreed on that path - some networking (like mimicking proxmox’s bridge connections which give VMs their own MAC/IP) takes effort to find the solution. But the basic LXC/VM-shares-your-IP works super easily and the script ability is great. Plus it doesn’t feel like a yoke on your system that is heavy and drives it, but just another application! I feel it’s close enough, and when you get it where you want it, it’s perf. I assume they’ll get “one click” solutions for the harder stuff baked in as they get more attention and traction.
“Just” some highly specific VM settings, in the end. I don’t know much about that, and terms like qemu don’t mean anything to me so I followed blog posts until it worked. (This one and maybe this one, I think.) It’s possible that it is actually trivial.
It’s been a while, but I can look up what I have when you need it. Feel free to ping me!
Yes, it was exactly that: Once I got the NICs set up the way I wanted them it was a breeze and everything just works. And I really like that I made every part work myself, no magic. I learned a lot, and wouldn’t have had I relied on Proxmox fiddling with the right parts for me.
Thanks for the links! I had no idea there were special settings needed
<img alt="1000072768" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d7f27d91-9bba-4fd9-b8c4-c4751c0d02a2.jpeg">
I don’t think jellyfin runs on DOS.
i just came into containerization recently and skipped Docker completely and went straight to podman. it’s been fantastic and integrates well with systemd. i would recommend anyone new to do the same.
since you’re not new, and are looking for something different, i would say do podman instead of docker.
I concur. Podman is superior in my opinion. It’s more secure by default (rootless containers) and can do pretty much everything docker can do naively (you can literally alias docker to podman in your shell and it will work)
It’s not as easy to find info on some of the systemd specific stuff (Quadlets), but once you figure that out, it’s pretty amazing.
I ended up making up my own scripts to allow me to create new system users, pre-loaded with aliases and shortcut functions to make my life easier ( automatic quadlet container file generation, pre-set network rules, etc), but it is not required.
All the info is there, but starting out it can be a bit overwhelming.
My containers are pretty much self sufficient now. I just intervene when something needs major updating or config changes
Proxmox is a hypervisor. I would install that as your os if that is something you want.
If you just need containers, podman is good. Docker is fine, but podman is open source.
That being said, I run proxmox on my server and have various vms running. I have a laptop that I will use to play with containers and if it turns into a service I want I'll make it run on proxmox, either as a container itself or as something running on a VM on the hypervisor
podman is also rootless.
Docker CE is also just as foss
Proxmox and Docker don’t really do the same thing. They live in the same area, but the coverage is very different. You can always use docker when your host is running proxmox: either individually or in groups inside of an lxc, or all in w dedicated VM, or even natively on the same house if you prefer chaos. But you can’t do the opposite: Sometimes you just need a VM. Maybe you only need a couple of devices, and you know they run on or are even designed for docker, then that’s the better option. In all other cases, and when just getting started, proxmox is just the way more universal solution if you’re only planning on having a single host (for now).
The management tools in proxmox are great. The community scripts are a fantastic resource and only work with proxmox. I would suggest you set it up natively, not on top of Debian though, even if that’s already installed. Not the least of the reasons are to be able to use ZFS easily, including on on the boot partition (select that in the installer).
Finally, if you’re gonna stick with docker, like others said: consider podman. That really does the same thing docker does, but it’s fully open source. Arguably it’s better in some areas, but on the flip side might, in occasion, require fiddling with something intended specifically for docker and using advanced setups.
Also there really is no wrong answer, either. And you can always change whatever you choose.
@Creat @JeanValjean Alot of apps seem to come with Docker images - can you use those with Podman?
Yes. That’s basically the point. They call it a “drop in replacement”, but last I used it manually there were some extra steps for what I wanted to do. To be clear: not for every thing you want to setup, just one if the things I read don’t up required extra steps. But I also hear that those things have changed since then and it’s mostly seamless now.
It’ll never really be a perfect drop in replacement because Docker relies on its daemon for a lot of functionality and Podman is daemonless, so you have to work around that. But like you said it’s just a matter of learning how things work with Portman.
Docker images are OCI compliant and are agnostic of the container runtime you use.
Docker community edition is fully foss
I like Podman but In don’t think foss is the driving factor in this case
I run Proxmox in my small cluster. Proxmox runs multiple VMs that each run various groups of docker containers.
They’re on different levels.
Yea I’m the same. planning on making some VMS/docker nodes, Highly available while others can be kicked to the kerb if there are issues.
Proxmox can run lxc containers natively.
Personally I keep a Debian VM for docker, a holdover from before hypervisors supported containers natively. I use docker compose and it Just Works™.
I have three docker nodes on three Debean VMs on three proxmox servers. I should play around with lxcs and native containers on proxmox but it would mess up with my tri lateral system.
Definitely Proxmox as base OS, Docker inside.
Run Docker inside a LXC or VM
and run Proxmox inside that VM
What?
they claim 3% overhead, I bet you could get pretty deep before noticing.
@JeanValjean I am not in a position to judge but Id be interested to hear comments on this position.
From the Proxmox Discussion Forum
Linux Containers (= LXCs) and docker containers are something completely different. LXCs are system containers. These contain a full OS except for the kernel which is shared with the host. You will have to administrate them like you would do it with a VM.
Docker containers are application containers where you containerize a single appliance. You don't individualize/upgrade them. You just throw them away and create a new one. So you are quite limited what you can do with them, as all you can configure is what the container creator wants you to be able to change.
So if you want a service as secure and independent as possible, or if you want to use Win/Mac/FreeBSD, use a VM.
If you want something like a VM running Linux, but you want less overhead, at the cost of security, use a LXC.
If you just want to run some services but you don't want to invest time on learning how they work or administrating them, then running a VM with docker would be a good choice.
There is no wrong answer but the right answer is Proxmox.
podman inside nixos inside lxc inside proxmox
Proxmox is great. I run each service in its own lxc/vm. Many of the vms also run docker. Probably overkill, but backups and restores via Proxmox Backup Server are super easy when segregated this way
This. Unless you want to go through the hell of multiple redundant architecture to deal with updates breaking things and backups. If you are The only person who is maintaining the multiple services that you’re running the backup feature alone is the reason to go with Proxmox. Upgrade to a lcx container didn’t go like you thought it would, roll back the backup, 30 sec and done. Also making liberal use of alpine have made it smooth and simple.
where do you run PBS? in a vm on the main proxmox host?
LXC on the host for me. Make sure it never backs itself up though.
Yes that’s exactly how I run it. I backup the PBS vm separately also, in case the host goes down
Don’t go Podman. When I started years ago I installed Fedora with the “containerization” option. This installs podman, not docker as I’m sure most know. I did not.
Podman works great for the most part, but it’s slight differences from docker will have you fighting tooth and nail for certain services to work correctly. And not many (if any at all) have any documentation on getting their containers working with Podman of they don’t start. If you make a GitHub issue asking why or how to get things running in Podman because their docker stack doesn’t work flawlessly like it will in docker, good luck getting help (Mailcow comes to mind specifically here).
Looking back, this decision really shoehorned some very fundamental ideals about containers in my mind, but it was a long fought road I would not choose again. The knowledge I gained about containers with docker would have come soon enough on the easy road.
And yes, you can install Docker on Fedora, but I was much too far down the Podman track before finding out. My environment has changed drastically as of late and most things have been migrated to docker apps in Truenas now, living directly next to their storage as intended (the arr stacks really take a performance hit running their databases over NFS once you have a lot of media for example).
Quick note about Proxmox after coming from ESX myself - it sucks compared to ESX. I’ve tried to move away from it and Nutanix was the closest I could find to ESX, but after my server started complaining it’s drives were not compatible I jumped ship to avoid any write damage to them. I’m downsizing my lab now, I have proxmox running in 3 small NUCs with CEPH storage share and it’s working pretty good. Would love to run ESX or Nutanix instead, but they require a loaf of bread in resource requirements where proxmox only needs a slice of bread in comparison.
What sucks about Proxmox compared to ESX? I’ve never tried it myself
I was a little unfair in my post towards Proxmox. It really is a great solution and I can’t really complain, but it sucks in comparison to ESX where many “custom” items are still hidden in the cli or custom configuration items,. Many of these things are available in the GUI in ESX which is a pretty rough translation for some that have worked in ESX for many years like myself. ESX isn’t without it’s CLI moments but they are rarely ever needed, and if needed only for drastic measures.
The UI is not very intuitive and really looks quite dated too. ESX, Nutanix and XCP-NG have much better interfaces imo, and if Proxmox could throw some of that extra money they’ve earned from the VMware exodus in their UI it would be worthwhile.
Again, I shouldn’t complain but as I get older there’s not much “tinkering” time anymore, and the less time I have to sift through forum posts or official documentation on why something isn’t working as intended, the more easily frustrated I get.
Docket-compose is the easiest and most commonly used format imo
I use systemd-nspawn to absolutely pissoff everyone :)
systemd-nspawn launched virt-qemu-run instance of proxmox running a windows hyper-v vm
Maybe use Docker with a UI like
lazydockerorPortainer.If you feel safe with Docker, perhaps experiment with Proxmox as a base. Then you can separate your environments into different VMs.
docker in a vm in proxmox!
no but really. I don’t like that the vm host’s kernel is shared with all the containers.
then maybe have 2 or 3 VMs, one of which hosts essential services (not like your nextcloud, but services that are necessary to make the (internal or whole home) network work like DNS and DHCP, maybe monitoring, and another that hosts your convenience services (jellyfin, nextcloud). the first is easier to fix if it breaks, the second is not the end if the world if it does. maybe also have a third for services that would be painful to have offline (nextcloud), but try to limit it to few tasks because the goal is simplicity. this setup can help with distro upgrade difficulties, and vm custom configuration issues when you have set up something that seems to work but will prevent VM startup sometime in the future.
podman could be a good idea too.
Both. Depends on what you want to achieve
Proxmox with all of its warts appears to be the better hypervisor. If your host has the headroom like others suggested: proxmox with a VM hosting docker/podman.
I have to say running proxmox saved me from running to the basement or opening up IPMI a few times already when making suspect changes to a VM that otherwise would have taken down the network of my host.
ATM I’m running Proxmox with Nixos VMs running mixed docker/podman containers. It works out pretty well for my use case and with some opentofu fiddling I have most of my infrastructure defined in config files if that’s a rabbit hole you want to go down.
As for my experience with docker vs podman I have to say podman can pretty much do whatever docker does with the exception of docker swarm. You may have to do some digging to handle more advanced networking/gpu setups.
The only thing I have running docker atm is a gluetun container because container to container networking took more than 15m of research with podman so I fell back to the very well documented path using docker.